Re: Pole Shifts vs Ice Ages (Revisited)

In Article <3BCF33DC.2040202@wwt.net> Thomas McDonald wrote:
> Her arguments, in the areas in which I've engaged her, 
> don't hold up.  She has stated that there have been a 
> number of cycles of ca. 3500 years where mammoths 
> have been flash frozen due to pole shifts. (This was a 
> statement from her in response to my quotation of a 
> Russian scientist who had studied the fauna frozen in 
> the Siberian permafrost, and who had given ages for 
> several frozen mammoths ranging from ca. 10,000 
> years ago to ca. 50,000 years ago.)  
>
> Note, though, that for her concept to work, the climate
> in Siberia must have shifted back and forth, from "warm
> and lush" to extremely cold on a fairly regular 3500 year
> (or multiples thereof) basis. In addition, woolly 
> mammoths would have to be seen as primarily a 
> tropical or temperate dwelling elephant, when they were
> in fact not.
>
> Question for you: how could the mammoths from the 
>  _previous_  pole shifts remain frozen in earth that, per 
> Nancy, has been warmed up to exclude permafrost?  

Talk about misquoting :-)

Please point to where I stated it shifted back and FORTH.  I said
Siberia moved northward, while Greenland moved southward.  Below, what
Thomas is referring to.  I state that GREENLAND and EUROPE got warmer,
while SIBERIA got colder, not back and forth.  Care to appologize,
Thomas? (Watch him throw another snit fit and call names.)

At http://www.zetatalk.com/usenet/use90168.htm, I quote:
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In Article <BEdj7.403$k7.6321@reggie.win.bright.net> Thomas McDonald wrote:
> I quoted documentation that Siberia had summers typical
> of modern arctic summers in terms of temperature and length.
> While Europe was in the grip of an ice age, and was often
> glaciated as far south as northern France and Germany, Siberia
> had a climate much like it does now.

Thomas, you did not address my point.  My point was that while Europe
and Greenland got warmer 11,000 years ago (and suddenly, I might add),
on the opposite side of our globe, at the SAME LATITUDE, it got colder.
Your prior response was that Wrangle Island and other places where
frozen mammoth corpses are being dug up "got warmer" at that time. 
Below, this quote of yours, and below that, what I'm asking you to address.
Put the globe in your hands, and tip Europe and Greenland north into the
Artic Circle, and see where that puts Wrangle Island!  The crust
shifted!

In Article <NbWc7.19$k7.326@reggie.win.bright.net> Thomas McDonald wrote:
> In Article <3B73F43D.7DF66774@zetatalk.com> Nancy Lieder wrote:
>> 2. the mammoths were eating vegetation that formerly grew
>>    in the area, please deal with why this vegetation is not
>>    found there TODAY
>
> At the end of the last ice age, as part of the great
> geological and climatological changes that took place with
> the melting of the continental ice sheets, the great
> ecosystem termed the "Mammoth steppe" changed as well.

WRANGLE ISLAND, Lat 70, Long 180
    Equivalent to Barrow, Alaska and further north than any
    part of Sweden or Norway.  In the Arctic Sea.  Most of the
    island sustains lichens, at best.
    =>  GOT MUCH COLDER 11,000 years ago

Discovery Magazine
April 1999

    to the end of the last ice age 11,000 years ago. Mammoths
    thrived .. in Siberia, where dry grasslands once
    stretched for hundreds of miles, supporting a vibrant
    ecosystem of mammoths, bison, and other jumbo
    herbivores. .. The mammoth fossils on Wrangel Island ...

GREENLAND, Lat 60-85, Long 45
    Cold until 11,700 years ago when "last ice age ended".
    Warmed until 7,000 years ago, then stabilized.
    16 degree warmup at end of last [European] Ice Age
    => WARMED UP SIGNIFICANTLY 11,700 years ago

Discover Magazine - March 1998
Empires in the Dust, by Karen Wright

    until 11,700 years ago, when the last ice age ended and
    the current warm era...

Climate Can Change Quickly
Associated Press, Oct 28, 1999
    Greenland glaciers shows ... a 16-degree abrupt warming
    at the end of the last ice age, ... happened within just a
    couple of decades.

EUROPE, Lat 45-60, Long 0
    Last Ice Age ended 11,000 years ago or so.
    => GOT MUCH WARMER
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